League Invasion Format

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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby SandstormS » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:02 pm

PoeticMadnesss wrote:
Heleor wrote:
Aurethious wrote:Most gyms in the games have several trainers that you have to face before getting to the leaders. Having the prerequisites to face to leader isn't a bad idea. I don't know how many people wanted to be gym leaders, but this could be an interesting way to get more people involved on that side of things. Each gym could have X number of trainers representing it.


The issue is twofold: Manpower and Organization. Having 1-3 subleaders for every leader may work, but it will still come with an issue of forcing challengers to find multiple specific people just for a single badge, and we'd need two to four times the number of leaders. Coordinating just 17 people is difficult enough.

Morgan: The main issue is the prerequisite work that needs to be done for this idea - the emblems would need to be created, ordered and paid for, as well as making sure each leader is useful. Organizing this is another huge thing that leaders need to keep track of, and another thing that leaders need to deal with.


Something else that could possibly be done is battling for the right to be put on the list. When there are multiple challengers, you could have them battle one another, the winners are put on the list to fight the gym leader, the losers have to keep battling until they become a winner. That'll keep those not battling the leader occupied, and it'll slow down the demand for gym leaders depending on how fast the other battles go...and in my brain, it'd appear something like the trainers within the gym all battling one another :P Just a suggestion.


as much fun as the other idea is, I prefer this idea. limits the necessary manpower and reduces the lines. also cheaper. the more simplistic this is, the more fun everyone will have.

A parallel idea would be for challengers already on the list can fight for spots. so if there is someone three spots ahead of you and you beat them, you switch spots. of course, this relies on the fact that there are lines as opposed to masses or lists.

If everyone is set on the emblem or token idea, why not give everyone who enters the handheld lounge a bag with ten or so tokens. then when trainers battle trainers, they can wager a number of tokens per battle. then each gym leader would require a number of tokens per match in order for a shot at the badge.

...or just have the pokemon league and the rocket league. whatever moves the lines faster
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Prof. Pine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:14 pm

though the token gathering idea sounds cool, when you think about putting it on on a grand scale, it doesn't work so well...

at PAX 09, there was the challenge button game. everyone got 2 buttons in their swag bags, and had to play some sort of game against other people with buttons to with a button from them. The thing that happened was very quickly people ravaged the swag bags and such. Now I know in your scenario, you'd be having the handheld people handing them out, but they already have enough to do. not to mention, people can just request annother bag, etc. etc.

One thing that we have to keep in mind is how abuseable the system is. In a perfect world, everyone would know what's going on, and what the rules are, and obey them. But in reality, some people won't know the rules, or what's going on, and be left out, or accidentally (or intentionally) break the rules.

Yeah, we can think that everyone at PAX will follow Wheaton's Law, but in actuality, there will always be some that don't. And the innevitability is that we have to plan for those who don't.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby SandstormS » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:21 pm

valid points.

so... the easiest option to uphold would be the two leagues?
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Morganstern » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:31 pm

The idea was not two leagues, but two teams that are fighting each other while gaining widgets that let them fight the Gym Leaders. It's so that fighting the leaders isn't the only thing to do, thus lighting the load.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Heleor » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:19 pm

The simplest solution is to have the emblems not handed out by the handheld lounge, but something you must earn through finding a rocket grunt or something. Since there would probably be plenty of grunts around, they could just give an emblem if you go up to them and talk to them - but only one per person per time they're spotted. This would add a filter to how fast people can challenge leaders, which will really relieve the pressure without much additional burden.

Yes, it's more manpower, but it's not any additional work for them if they're already planning to show up as a Rocket. All they'd have to do is have a bag of badges with them, and if we need to, we can just make armbands for the Rockets that do not wish to dress up. Simple and efficient, and the only work that needs to be done is getting the emblems made and passed out.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Morganstern » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:10 pm

Instead of NPC rocket grunts, why not have the other players in the league fight each other and hand out the emblems to people they get beat by? Then there's no additional manpower needed as the people playing handling the distribution, and everyone gets to play more.

If your worried about people cheating, these types of games are always honor system anyway. I thought having 2 teams would do a little self policing, because you would need emblems different from your faction badge. Also, Trainers would get to chase down Rockets (or vice versa) and that's gotta be fun. You'd have mini Pokewars breaking out all over! And Turf! ("Let's cross over behind the Ubisoft booth, and be careful, this is Rocket territory...")

As far as money for getting things made, throw up a Chip In so everyone can get together and split the cost.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Heleor » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:03 pm

Morganstern wrote:Instead of NPC rocket grunts, why not have the other players in the league fight each other and hand out the emblems to people they get beat by? Then there's no additional manpower needed as the people playing handling the distribution, and everyone gets to play more.

If your worried about people cheating, these types of games are always honor system anyway. I thought having 2 teams would do a little self policing, because you would need emblems different from your faction badge. Also, Trainers would get to chase down Rockets (or vice versa) and that's gotta be fun. You'd have mini Pokewars breaking out all over! And Turf! ("Let's cross over behind the Ubisoft booth, and be careful, this is Rocket territory...")

As far as money for getting things made, throw up a Chip In so everyone can get together and split the cost.


We're toeing the line already regarding money. We're not going to accept money from challengers.

The issue is that even if it's self-policing it still means that every member of the league must first find someone, get some emblems to hand out, etc etc etc. What you're saying is that each challenger must have almost as much involvement as a leader. People could still fight each other for the emblems if they wish - the main thing I'm changing is that the source of every emblem is someone in the league, rather than a random challenger. No offense.

We're basically debating PvP versus PvE here. The leader faction is the 'E' team and the challengers are the 'P' team.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Morganstern » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:22 am

If your going to do it this way, I think your going to bump into another classic problem in these types of games, lack of NPCs. Even if you only require 3 emblems to fight a leader, you'll need a good number to people so players aren't running to the same person every 3 minutes for the 42 tokens they need. Considering most people are there to PVP against lots of other people anyway, setting them upon themselves clears up a lot of logistical issues.

As for the extra work, I don't think it's much to ask people to swing by the Handheld Lounge and pick up a pocket full of buttons. The whole point of this was to take some of the burden off the Leaders and spread it amongst the 50 or so people playing.
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Shade » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:32 pm

If I might toss in my two cents.

PoeticMadnesss wrote:
Heleor wrote:
Aurethious wrote:Most gyms in the games have several trainers that you have to face before getting to the leaders. Having the prerequisites to face to leader isn't a bad idea. I don't know how many people wanted to be gym leaders, but this could be an interesting way to get more people involved on that side of things. Each gym could have X number of trainers representing it.


The issue is twofold: Manpower and Organization. Having 1-3 subleaders for every leader may work, but it will still come with an issue of forcing challengers to find multiple specific people just for a single badge, and we'd need two to four times the number of leaders. Coordinating just 17 people is difficult enough.

Morgan: The main issue is the prerequisite work that needs to be done for this idea - the emblems would need to be created, ordered and paid for, as well as making sure each leader is useful. Organizing this is another huge thing that leaders need to keep track of, and another thing that leaders need to deal with.


Something else that could possibly be done is battling for the right to be put on the list. When there are multiple challengers, you could have them battle one another, the winners are put on the list to fight the gym leader, the losers have to keep battling until they become a winner. That'll keep those not battling the leader occupied, and it'll slow down the demand for gym leaders depending on how fast the other battles go...and in my brain, it'd appear something like the trainers within the gym all battling one another :P Just a suggestion.


So, essentially, we fight more people to get to the leaders we want?
I really don't want to have to devote more of my PAX time to fighting grunts. As fun as it is to play pokemon, it feels menial or trivial to 'tier' up the opponents. While the factions idea is fun (like the rocket representative elite four member), I really dislike the idea of working my way up through the ranks earning emblems or somesuch. Much more satisfying to acquire a gym badge per battle. And if we're getting this much projected participation from the grunt level, why not just make them all leaders instead? (Plus, far more satisfying to be the leader and not some npc obstacle).
Also, infighting the people on the lists is kinda unfair to a point. Those people ahead of you had the good fortune (or not) to be waiting for that particular gym leader longer. That's time they've invested. While playing in line is encouraged (your opponent's right there, he/she's not moving) as a fun way to pass the time, I wouldn't want to have to defend my right to stay in a particular point of line (say you're challenged by someone who's devoted time to building some broken EV team, say you're playing for kicks and hadn't put in that time, does that make him/her qualified to take the time you've patiently waited in line and disregard it?).
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Re: League Invasion Format

Postby Maylene » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:38 pm

I pretty briefly scanned this thread, so I'm not going to get knee-deep into a discussion about the ideas you guys have presented, but based on what I'm seeing it looks like this would just get way, way too complicated. The league is fun, and having it move smoother will of course be fun, but adding factions and tiers and emblems and whatever just sounds like it would overcomplicate things. Some people were overwhelmed just by the idea of finding leaders out on the floor, I don't think adding all of this stuff will attract more people- rather, I think it will alienate more casual challengers.
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